Using evidence from the text, how has Holden changed from the boy who left Pencey Prep with a bloody nose to the boy who wanders around New York City? Post your answer and a response to a classmate's answer by Tuesday, 2/8/11. Remember you won't have your x-day this week because we will be working on our classroom wiki. Enjoy your weekend.
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ReplyDeleteI think that Holden has become less secure of himself as the book progresses. For example, when he's with Ackley at the beginning of the book, he's annoyed by him. But he doesn't yell at him or hit him, he just sits there. When he's with Sally, he gets mad and yells about school and New York, and says stuff he doesn't even mean. He scared her. I feel like he's becoming less sure of who Holden Caulfield really is. Is he the teenager who drinks illegally and pays for a prostitute, or is he someone who cares about one person in general and does reckless things when he feels she's in danger. I think Holden needs to get a grip. He's changed from being reckless and touchy, to being more reckless and touchier. He needs a break, before he really hurts himself.
ReplyDelete~~Alexandra
Holden's actions have been moving downhill ever since he left Pencey Prep. In the text he mentions how difficult it will be to tell his mother that he got kicked out of another boarding school. After reading that, I realized that Holden does have feelings, he cares, but he doesn't quite know how to deal with those feelings. Instead of talking to his family or any of his friends, Holden decides to drink and do reckless, stupid things. After hiring the prostitute and realizing she really was just there for the sex he figures out what he actually wants. He wants a girl who can hold a conversation and impress him. He wants a girl like Jane. Everything he does in New York takes Holden one step closer to adopting some common sense. Throughout these few days he's had to learn the hard way, but for Holden that seems like the only way. I believe Holden is growing up. He is distinguishing between what's important and what he does just because he doesn't know what else to do with himself. For example, When he buys the gift for Phoebe. You see happiness and excitement. His sister brings out emotion in Holden. I feel this softer side of Holden could become who he is if he'd just care a little more about his education and how his actions impact others. Holden is expressing various, mixed feelings, making it hard to analyze his personality.
ReplyDeleteAlexandra, I don't agree that Holden is becoming "less sure" of himself. In my opinion, he's finding who he really is. He is, once again, running from his problems, but this time there's plenty of obstacles. He's good at becoming angry instead of addressing his emotions, but I saw more anger at Pencey than I do when he's alone in New York. Some of the events occurring in New York are him trying to sort out his issues, but later realizing it's not what he really wants (prostitute and Sally).
-Sumner
Throughout the story, Holden has changed quite a bit from his Pencey Prep days to his wandering around New York City. In my opinion, Holden has become much more mature in some ways throughout the story. For example, at the beginning of the story, Holden was just doing whatever pleased him. He didn't really care about anyone else but himself, and he didn't seem to realize that if he continued like this he would have no future. However, once Holden reaches New York, he begins to have all these experiences that begin to show him how important it is to have a good life. Sure, he doesn't really seem to have any plan just yet, and his rant to Sally about running away to Vermont does seem a little crazy, but deep down he is beginning to become more mature. Take the scene with the prostitute. If Holden was acting like he was at Pencey Prep, immature and not caring about any consequences, he would have just had sex with her. But he begins to realize, especially in this scene, that his way of living just isn't right.
ReplyDeleteSumner, I agree with you when you say that the scene with the prostitute was a sort of turning point for Holden, and that he has become more mature. He is learning lots of life lessons just by wandering around New York, and he is becoming more and more mature and grown up every day.
Holden is a complicated character who changes with every page. However, I think he has changed quite from his days at Pencey Prep. We are suddenly seeing a lot more that this character in the book has feelings and does actually care. With scenes such as with the museum, the singing little boy walking on the street, and longing for his sister Phoebe we are becoming acquainted with a new Holden. When the prostitute comes to his room the first night in NYC, we see Holden longing for someone who like Sumner said in her post, like Jane. He wants to get to know the girl before anything happens. I think that he is fighting with himself between the Holden who thinks those thoughts and cares about where the ducks go during the winter, and the Holden who is reckless and drunk, just playing around with girls. I think that Holden is just getting worse as he switches from one "Holden" to another trying to get a hold of who he really is. I believe that he is starting to look back at everything and as Phoebe points out, looking for the reason why and what he really wants, which is a struggle that every teenager endures, but Holden has decided to take on his own and try to manage it.
ReplyDeleteClark, I agree with both of you that he is learning a lot of life lessons but I don't think that he is growing up every day. It seems to me that he is stuck in between his immature ways and growing up and taking responsibility. By growing up he would have to give up a lot of the things he has found himself doing the past couple of days such as getting drunk, spending all of his money, and going on dates with Sally. I think that he has grown up a lot from what he was at Pencey, but he still has a long ways to go and is stuck in that finding oneself period, fighting with himself with the product of school and the boy he is when out of those situations.
At this point in the story I think Holden has made bad decisions but i also think he knows that his decisions weren't the smartest at the time. I think he realizes what he did, he may still be a underaged kid that drinks and smokes but he at least has come to grips with what he did. At the beginning of the book Holden was a kid that had flunked out of more then one school and is being expelled at that very moment from another school, Pency Prep. Holden seems to be very nonchalant about his and doesn't seem to take in the big picture, his life is going absolutely nowhere. He tells his teacher that he has more then enough time to turn his life around but he knows that he is just lying to himself. When Holden decides to go to NYC he keeps his old habits of smoking, drinking and lying. We see no change at all in Holden until page 179 when Holden breaks out crying; " Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn't help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it." At this point Holden finally realizes that he has made a terrible life for himself. Phoebe insisted him to take money because Phoebe can see how bad of a condition Holden is in. Holden Finally snaps out of this "daze" he has been in for the entire books and see's why Phoebe is giving him money. He cant believe it and just breaks down and cry's, he has come to an all time low. At the start of the book Holden thought he just had a slow start to his life and that everything was going to turn out just fine. At NYC I think he realized that his life is not going up, but down.
ReplyDeleteClark,
I agree that Holden has come a long way from his old self at Pency Prep, but he is still make immature decisions. You mentioned the prostitute scene and I agree that Holden showed a sense of maturity when he backed out of having sex with her, but it was his immature decision that got him in that place in the first place. Also you said at Pency Holden did whatever pleased him and didn't really care about others. He still does this with his underaged drinking and smoking. That pleases him and he will do it even though it may not be right, this comforts him and he really doesn't care if other people may question what he is doing. Up to this point in the story it it hard to say if he has "matured".
I think at this point in the story Holden's character and personality are staying the same as they were when he left Pencey Prep. He still is very nonchalant about everything he is doing and never thinks about a plan or which direction he wants to go in life. As he did in Pencey, Holden is using all his spare time drinking and smoking, and also wasting valuable money. In a way Holden is starting to mature a little bit. Even though he is still out getting drunk and wasting a lot of his own money, I think Holden is slowly starting to mature. A great example of this is when he backed out of having sex, because he started to feel depressed and he thought it was a better choice to not. I think being in NYC has taught Holden a lot of life lessons, that he couldn't see at Pencey Prep. I think Holden needs to think about who he is and what changes he needs to make before he goes back home to his parents.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Erich how Holden is starting to realize the mistakes he has been making, and how he is feeling more depressed now that he is at NYC. I also agree with how when he broke down and started to cry was a turning point for him.
I think that Holden is changing at this point in the story because he is becoming more vulnerable. At Pencey and his various other schools it was pretty easy for him to keep up a tough image. He wanted to be perceived as a strong guy. However, now that he is out on his own, he has to deal with real life. He is getting so lonely that he is paying a prostitute to talk with him and discussing the migratory patterns of ducks with a random cab driver. I think that the sensitive and sweet Holden is coming out as we see him drift into more and more thoughts about Jane and his obvious affection for his younger sister Phoebe. We also get glimpses into what is important to him as he comments on the little singing boy and museums. Hopefully as we move through the story he will kick his drinking problem and continue down the positive path he has been traveling. I hope that he ends up going back to his parents and having a positive future at a new school and with Jane.
ReplyDeleteAlexandra, I, like Sumner, disagree that this has been a negative transformation for Holden. When he paid for a prostitute he did not have sex with her but did it out of charity. Also, I think that his illegal drinking is just another way for him to numb his constant state of loneliness, not just because he is loose and unscrupulous. I also think that his outburst with Sally is a positive thing because he is beginning to realize that he has some issues (which I would infer stem from Allie’s death) and that if he had been at Pencey Prep he would have continued on the date in fake affection.
Holden has changed a lot since he left Pencey Prep. The more the story progresses the more you find out that Holden really cares about some people. When he was at Pencey Prep Holden did not care about anyone there. The first time we find out that Holden actually cared about someone was when Stradlater mentioned Jane. Shortly afterward he left. While he is out wandering the streets of New York City, he keeps thinking about the people that he cares about and the people that care about him. For example, he really wants to call up Phoebe but is afraid that his parents might pick up shows that he cares about Phoebe because he really wants to talk to her. It also shows that he cares about what his parents think. He wants to tell him in his own time instead of getting them all upset. Later in the book, when the prostitute arrives in his room, he is tested on what he really cares about. This is where Holden’s change is made obvious for the reader and it is where he makes his big decision. Holden has changed a lot since he left Pencey Prep.
ReplyDeleteClark, I disagree with the fact that he is becoming much more mature. He may be learning from the things he is going through like that fact that he is starting to care about people and other things but I think he has a lot more to learn. He is definitely on his way to become more mature but he is not there yet. He does not know what he is going to with his life yet.
In the beggining of the book I feel as if the author made us belive that Holden has no feelings. Or he does, they just dont matter. As the book progresses, you see a more emotional side of Holden. In my mind I look at it as Holden started this story leaving out specific details but as he got further into the story he got more into it telling us every detail.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Valentina when she said basicly the same thing. She siad that Holden changes throguhout the book and his feelings are more clearly expressed.
Holden has changed from the boy at Pencey to the boy that wanders around New York City in many ways. Primarily he has become the loneliest person on the face of the planet, when he was at Pencey at least he actually had people to talk to to keep him from feeling lonely. But now instead of just talking to his roommate like he probably did when he was lonely at Pencey he has to call all over the place just to talk to them. His loneliness has been the biggest factor in his change of personality, partly because his loneliness has opened a gateway to depression, thus causing Holden to try and drown his troubles in drink and in smoking which is not a good habit.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Austin on the fact that the author made it seem that Holden’s feelings didn't matter, or that they could be hurt and it wouldn't matter to Holden, but now he can be hurt to a certain degree, not as much as most people though.
Holden is now released from the strict laws of Pencey Prep and out into the world. He has lots of freedom and enough rope to hang himself with. Now that he is out of school and wandering New York by himself, he is exposed to opportunities such as going to clubs, bars, and he doing things he not supposed to do like drink etc. For him it’s like an opportunity for fun. Every chance he gets he calls girls and boys asking for dates and meetings at restaurants. He has changed from being relatively limited to care free. He has also gone from being cynical to nihilistic, completely depressed and lonesome. In school he was un satisfied with his peers and teachers but now that he is out in the “wild” this skeptic attitude and calling everyone a phony has increased somehow and he is more negative towards everything and everyone. He admits his life is rotten and even starts talking about suicide.
ReplyDeleteDingles44 I agree with what you said about when Holden is out in New York we see a more emotional side of him. I also agree with what you said about as the story progresses details get more specific.
I don’t think Holden has changed very much since he has left Pencey. He was very immature. He had just gotten beaten up by Stradlater, and gotten kicked out of school because he was failing 4 out of 5 subjects. He had had enough of school, and was down on life. The reason that I think he hasn’t changed is because, while he is in New York, he is also very depressed. He talks to a taxi driver about what he is interested in, even though nobody except for Holden himself could be interested in it. Holden has had his more mature moments, like when he didn’t want to have sex with the prostitute, but overall I think that he is mostly the same Holden who went to Pencey.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Shawn that he is also still drinking and smoking 3 packs of cigarettes per day, and that he doesn’t know what he is going to do with his life. This, to me, is the same Holden that left Pencey a few days before.
Holden has changed since he left Pencey. He has become more mature and more reckless at the same time. At Pencey he was horsing around, acting like a little kid. There were rules and regulations that kept Holden in check, at least a little. At school, he joked around, and had his classmates to talk to. Once he got to New York, he began smoking and drinking because he knew he wouldn't get caught, and went to bars and nightclubs. Holden gets depressed and lonely, so his pessimism gets magnified. He doesn't know where to go or what to do with himself. He is used to having schedules in boarding school, so he always had somewhere to go if he needed one.
ReplyDeleteIn New York, he can't go home until Wednesday, and he feels like he has no place. He calls up people that he knows because he wants something familiar. This is why the museum makes Holden happy, for once. It is familiar, and it never changes. This contributes to his depression. Holden becomes more reckless as a result of his loneliness.
He also becomes more mature when he leaves Pencey, because he begins to feel sorry for people. He analyzes their situation, and feels sympathy for them. With the prostitute, he gets depressed thinking about how she bought the green dress, with everyone at the store thinking that she was a normal girl. He also realizes that no one really cares about Lillian Simmons, and Holden feels sorry for her. Realizing the feelings of others is a step in becoming more mature for Holden. He still is immature because he does not know what to do with his life, and has little ambition.
Valentina, I agree with what you wrote, that Holden is stuck in a phase where he is still immature but is moving in the direction of more responsibility.
Holden has changed in a couple of different ways since he left Pencey Prep. He has become more mature and has grown up a bit. When he left Pencey, he didn't really seem to care about anyone but himself. During his time in New York, Holden shows that he does care. He cares about Jane a lot. She is one of the few people he really wants to talk to and someone he doesn’t badly about. He also cares about his little sister Phoebe, so much that he goes to see her.
ReplyDeleteOnce in New York, Holden starts to feeling sorry for different people, another change. He feels sorry for Lillian because no one genuinely likes her. Holden also realizes the effect the news of getting kicked out of school might have on his mother. He feels guilty. This is very different than how he reacted during his talk with Mr. Spencer. He didn't show any guilt then and now he feels sorry for his mother.
Valentina,I, like Lena, agree with you that Holden is still somewhat immature but is going in the right direction. He is still reckless (drinking, smoking,random outbursts)but I do think he is slowly moving in a positive direction.
Since Holden left Pencey Prep, he has become more in touch with his emotions. A very strong example of this is when Holden is punched by Maurice after he refuses to give the prostitute five extra dollars. Although I'm sure this experience was rather traumatizing, Holden is particularly hurt by it. He has a minor breakdown when he cries, he pretends to be wounded by a gunshot, and finally he briefly considers suicide. This shows that Holden is really quite sensitive and is upset that he was taken advantage of. However, this was not apparent in the beginning of the book. There was a very similar situation when Stradlater beat him in a fight (although Holden started it) after taking advantage of Holden (by making him write his composition). Holden does react to this experience but not nearly as severely. He comes close to crying, but he is essentially just surprised and a little confused. After that he returns to his activities pretty easily,going into Ackley's room then deciding to leave before break. One could argue that it was the fight that caused him to leave, but I think it was just his frustration with the school in general, and that the fight didn't have any lasting effects.
ReplyDeleteAnother display of Holden's sentiments was in his visit to Phoebe. His expression "She kills me" really summarizes his emotions. He is touched by her fiction writing and her dancing, and he even cries when he knows he's leaving her. Then, he feels horrible because he realizes his crying has scared her a little. Although Holden probably loved Phoebe just as much in the beginning of the book, it wasn't as significant because he never mentioned it, which means he wasn't really thinking about it. Holden had all of the same emotions when he was at Pencey, but they were dormant in a way because he wasn't conscious of them. Now that he is in New York, he is close to all the things he loves (Phoebe, the Museum, etc.), but he can't have any of them, and this has sparked the awakening of his emotions inside of him.
Sumner-
I agree with you that Holden's display of emotions are (potentially) a good thing. Right now it might not seem like that because of his reckless behavior. However this behavior is just a result of Holden being confused by these emotions. Eventually, hopefully, once Holden is able to understand these emotions he will know what to do with his life, and he will begin the climb uphill in life.
Holden has become more complex of a character throughout the course of the book. At the beginning of the story he was an analytical kid who was flunking four out of five subjects at his school, Pencey Prep. Since leaving the school we have seen Holden learn more about himself; he understands more about his faults and his weaknesses. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it has been a trip of insecurity for Holden. From the beginning of the trip to New York he has become increasingly more lonely. He states multiple times in the book about how lonely he is, an example of this being that he always wants to call people. He realizes that he has no one to call and becomes even more lonely and depressed. I think that this is one of the examples of how he becomes more lonely. When he is in NYC, he is more alone and thus more in touch with his feelings. He learns about himself, one of these examples being when he is encountered by a prostitute. He chooses not to have sex with her and becomes more one with himself. This shows that even though his time in NYC may be a downward one, he is still able to learn more about himself and possibly become a better person.
ReplyDeleteHolden's time in NYC is characterized by his quest to be able to make himself a better person, I believe. He wanders the streets thinking about the faults in people and getting drunk because he knows that he is an incompetent person and that he may be a "phony" himself. Since leaving Pencey, he has become a lot more critical about people around him. He does this as his loneliness increases and he becomes more depressed. These changes in him are mostly negative, but may be more useful to him as the story progresses ante tries to find out who he is and what he wants to do with his life. We have encountered a big change from the kid that ran away form his school in the middle of the night.
Ethan- I disagree with you. I think that we have seen a huge change in Holden as the book has progressed. At the beginning of the book he never talks about how lonely he is and he doesn't contemplate suicide like he does later in the book. At the beginning of the book he is a little immature, something that stays with him throughout the book, but we see so much much more about Holden as the novel progresses. He has become so much more than an immature, failing schoolboy.
Holden's behavior hasn't changed very much at all but his mental state has. He still drinks, smokes and lies all the time. But he does have much less confidence then when he left Pencey and, being alone so much has allowed him to think a lot about his situation and he gets progressively more and more depressed. He realizes how few friends he has and how alone he feels in the world. When he was at Pencey with other people, he could kind tell himself that he had friends even if they didn't really like him or he them. By the time he sets up to meet Phoebe outside the museum, he has gotten so depressed and lonely he had started to talk to Allie out loud walking down the street, which the "Pencey Holden" wouldn't have done because people would think he was crazy. He didn't care of people like Ackley or Stradlater didn't like him but he did care a lot if they thought he was crazy.
ReplyDeleteHolden knows how to help and care for other people and he knows what other people should do if they are in a similar situation to his but he has no clue where to start helping himself and just keeps spiraling in his own depression and loneliness and frustration and disgust with most people in his world.
I agree with Miles. Holden has changed hugely and we do see so much more about him and who he really is by even the middle of the book let alone the end of the book.
Since leaving Pencey Prep, Holden has had his very first taste of real freedom. Throughout the beginning of the book, it's clear that Holden doesn't want to grow up. He's immature, behaves like he's 5 years younger than he actually is, and thinks he knows everything that the world has to offer. It's also plausible that part of him feels left behind by his parents. Boarding school after boarding school, it seems as if they just want to get rid of him. Reality has dawned upon Holden that school isn't going to last for much longer. He's not going to be protected by childhood forever. In New York City, he experiences adulthood for the first time. He isn't so used to being so independent and self responsible. His insecurities and loneliness are brought to a boiling point when he discovers that he really doesn't have anywhere to go. He can't go home because his parents don't approve of him, he can't go back to Pencey because he flunked out, he has no friends to call up, and he can't see the one person that might have brought some light into his life; Allie. Holden has nowhere to go, with no one to see. Most of his interactions with past girlfriends, the three older women, or Sunny the prostitute are out of sheer loneliness. His sanity is slowly slipping away from him as he realizes what his life has come to. At this point in the book he is able to see his true emotions for the first time, and be forced to cope with them. Now that Holden is finally on his own, being an adult doesn't seem like it's so worth while. In essence Holden is the same boy that began the story, but he has grown to know himself a little better, and accept who he is.
ReplyDeleteSumner-
I completely agree with you. Holden wants someone to be with him, not just as a sex object. He also really does care, and wants change to happen in his life.
I think the reason why Holden left Pencey was because he was searching for freedom, to escape the phonies. Unfortunately for him, New York is extremely big city wide a vast spectrum of personalities, but all he ever seems to meet are phonies and more phonies. Holden has been ejected from many boarding schools many times before he was expelled from Pencey, but I think this may be the first time Holden has excused himself. I think that also may signify that this expulsion is the straw that will break the camel's back, Holden being the camel. Ever since he has been in New York, he has done so many things that are out of character: watching movies voluntarily, hiring prostitutes, and even crying. I think that Holden left Pencey in delusion, thinking that life would be so much better once he got out of that crummy place. So then why does he pause at the very beginning of the story to sit on the Thomsen's hill, overlooking the football field, "...trying to feel some kind of a good-by" (4). Why does he go and have the chat with old Spencer, knowing that he will just lecture him about his past and try to council him about his future? I think the answer to this question is because something changed when Holden was given the ax from Pencey, something changed when he heard Jane Gallagher's name spoke for the first time in years, something changed when he punched Stradlater in the face, something changed when he heard that little boy singing, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." What changed, however, we won't know until Holden tells us.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with Bergren when she said that "Holden knows how to help and care for other people and he knows what other people should do if they are in a similar situation to his but he has no clue where to start helping himself and just keeps spiraling in his own depression and loneliness and frustration and disgust with most people in his world." I think, although many people view Holden as a angsty introvert, he really does have the capacity to care for other people. We all know how much he observes and dissects their behavior, but he really does care about people like Jane and Phoebe, although he may try too hard to conceal it sometimes.
-Catherine Collison
I think that holden made a big mistake by leaving early. He has become very insecure and very depressed. Another big reason that he shouldn't have left is because he has is now far from all his friends and is extremely lonely. Although he is lonely and depressed, he still seems to be somewhat under control. A good example is when he was asked if he wanted a prostitute he said yes, but instead of having sex he didn't. This shows how he is reckless, but then under control. In New York holden begins to accept that he is not secure. he says at one point, "I'm a madman". I think that is true because of his insult to sally.
ReplyDeleteI agree with catherine that holden left Pencey thinking that life in New York would be much better than his life. This probably wasn't a great decision because his is lonely and even more depressed than before.
Holden has definitely changed throughout the story. Along with the freedom he gained after leaving Pencey Prep, he has also become lonelier. He had always had a school to try to keep him in check and roommates to talk to, but now he doesn’t really have anyone. He can do whatever he chooses, which doesn’t seem to be a good thing for Holden. He has realized that life alone in New York City is going to be quite a bit different than what he was used to. Some of the changes he doesn’t seem to like because he is finally coming to realize that he can not be a child forever. He will no longer have someone telling him what to do or what he shouldn’t do. The real world seems to scare him in some ways. Holden is constantly looking for someone to talk to or support him, although nobody really wants to. He goes so far as to try and become friends with strangers. As pointed out when he tried to talk to the three girls at the club, he just wants company. He is in the process of realizing that he won’t always have someone and needs to learn to live on his own.
ReplyDeletePhilip- I agree that being lonely is probably the biggest change so far and has probably affected him the most. It is a dangerous situation because it is leading him to do thing that he shouldn’t.
To me it seems that holden hasn't changed very much. i think he's trying to escape his problems by running away. he doesn't want to face his parents after being kicked out from pencey, and when he left he had just gotten in a fight with stradlater. and when he goes to new york nothing really changes. he gets in another fight with maurice and he just doesn't want to give up. he likes to stand his ground. one way that he may have changed was he is very lonely. at least when he was at pencey he had people who knew him around him, now that he's in new york he doesn't know anybody. i think when he said yes to the prostitute and he didn't want to that it was just a cry for help because he's so lonely. i mean he only wanted to talk to her which implies that he just needs somebody to talk to.
ReplyDeletei disagree with lena because i don't think holden has gotten more mature. he seem the same, just a little more depressed and lonely which he keeps on telling us in the book.
I think that Holden has become a lot more mature as the book progresses. In the beginning of the book, when he was still at Pencey, he was very immature and almost childish. Since he has left his school and has wandered through New York, he has experienced a lot more and that has taught him to be more mature. For instance, when the prostitute came in and wanted to just have sex and get it over with, he realized that she was no older than he and that he shouldn't have sex with her. He realized that she has had a very screwed up life so far and he did not want to perticipate or add to that. I still think that he doesn't know anything about his future but now he has a better understanding of the world and the hardships some have to face.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Bergren who said that being alone has allowed Holden to think about his situation and his future. I think that had contributed to his maturity as the book goes on.
Holden has been doing worse and worse as the book goes on. He is growing apart from all people he knew in the past. As he gets more lonely he is growing more depressed. He has many opportunities to meet new people but he pushes everyone away with his lack of being able to enjoy the company of others. Everyone he meets he pushes away and this is occurring more and more as the story goes on.
ReplyDeleteAs D Haze said he is becoming more mature which I agree with but he is also very rude and he still cannot learn to accept more. At the moment Holden only likes Jane, Phoebe, and Allie who past away. This is a problem he has that is restricting him from being less depressed.
I think that holden is insecure about himself because he went from a relaxed student to a kid that wonders the streets looking for booze. He even paid for a prostitute but he never does a thing so he was bad but now he might be finding his way back to normal.
ReplyDeleteI agree with sumner because he just wants some one to hang out with not to have sex with.
Holden hasn’t changed at all because he couldn’t let himself pass anything other than english. He ran away from Pencey Prep because he couldn’t let himself stay, He bolted from old spencer because he didn’t wanted to be lectured. When DB’s old girlfriend started talking to him he ran away. He is very immature because he goes to bars and drinks because people think he is older because of his gray hair but also that he takes advantage of people. For instance when he got a prostitute to come to his room and wouldn’t the extra five dollars. It could be because he didn’t think it was fair but he should have felt bad for her and give it to her anyway. In a way I feel bad for Holden not having decent parents, that his brother, Allie died,that he couldn’t properly grieve his brother. He didn’t want to be alone although he wouldn’t connect with anyone because he would push people a way.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Bergren that he hasn’t changed and that he lies all the time. He is very lonely and drinks a lot. I felt bad that people had ostracized him because he left the fencing equipment on the subway, but I don’t like him at all.
Throughout the story so far, I think Holden is more mature now than he was at Pencey Prep. Back in Pency Prep Holden was not motivated and failed almost all his classes.In Pency Prep Holden was very selfish and only really cared for Jane.He also did not care about where he was going in life.For insistence when Mr.Spencer is asking Holden about what he is going to do in future,Holden doesn't really know what to say because he never thought about what he was going to do in life. This shows that Holden is lost and confuesed and not mature.
ReplyDeleteIn New York Holden seems to be more confident, and is slowly making wiser choices than just doing something without thinking about the consequeces. For example when Holden invites the prostitute to come have sex with him, Holden starts to realize that the prostitue has been through a lot in her life,so he decides not to have sex with her because he can tell what she has been through and does not want to be one of those people that had sex with her. Instead Holden tries to talk to her. This shows that Holden is becoming more mature and is caring about others and trying to help. I believe that at the end of the book Holden will figure out what he wants to do with his life.
I agree with Bergren that Holden being alone in the city will help him later on in life because he will go through tough life situations and learn from them.
Holden has changed a lot as a character since the the beginning of this book. Not only are we as readers starting to understand him better, but we can also see what is wrong with him. At the beginning, we could tell that he was depressed and of course, wasn't doing well in school. Not only was it about school, but he also didn't feel much connection to the people. However, the day that he left Pencey Prep and the days that followed in New York, Holden realized that his problem wasn't only depression, it was loneliness. At school, he may have not been close to any of the boys, but at least he had people there. In New York, he barely knows anyone, he can't go home, and he can barely afford buying himself a cab. We can dig deeper and begin to see that his problem with loneliness is not only that there aren't people around, but also his inability to actually like people. He pushes everyone away because he thinks they are phonies, or because he doesn't like their qualities. The only few people he does like, he can't see right now. I think throughout the rest of the book, the only way Holden will be able to control himself is to realize his problems and fix them before he can't help himself anymore.
ReplyDeleteBergren - I agree with your statement about Holden and his confidence after he left Pencey Prep. I also think that he lost a great amount of confidence even though he didn't have much to begin with. I definitely agree with what you said about Holden helping himself. If he doesn't start worrying about himself and considering his own feelings, he is not going to change anything in a positive way.
Well Holden has certainly been through a lot since his days at Pencey. He has become increasingly more lonely each day. He calls up a prostitute to hang out with, not even wanting to have sex with her. he gets so desperate as to even call Sally Hayes who, by his definition, is a complete phony. He sees that little boy on the street singing and walking happily with his parents and it pushes him to the point where he risks going home to see his little sister. He was already depressed, but now it is safe to say that if he were to be seen by a shrink that he would have clinical depression. Almost everything seems to make him sad. He finally admits to sally that the problem is with him not the world, and that seems to make him more depressed, now that he had said it out loud.
ReplyDeleteRachel- i agree with you that Holden now has become lonelier because there is no one around to even talk to, he does enjoy peoples company, but its not that he doesnt like people, its that the easiest things for him to see in them are their flaws
Although Holden has changed as a person since his Pencey Prep days, he has not necessarily done so for the better. Holden has taken his opportunities for social interactions for granted, and he has realized this a bit too late. He frequently addresses the reader about his loneliness, and he has started behaving in a desperately friendly manner (only to strangers) to compensate for the fact that he still has not developed any strong relationships in the city. Most pathetically of all, Holden puts himself in the middle of absolutely ridiculous scenarios just to have a conversation with somebody, which even he considers to be preposterous (or maybe "phony"?).
ReplyDeleteAndrew H,
I fully agree with your assessment. Holden now realizes that HE is creating problems for the world, rather than the world creating problems for him. He has turned into the epitome of a loner, and he'll stay that way unless he can somehow put a respectable amount of effort into refining his lifestyle and ethics. I personally don't think he can revitalize his personality if he's going to continue to be extensively pessimistic and irritable. At this rate, it would be incredulous for Holden to improve.
Holden Caufield is a very unique and interesting character. His strange thought pattern has gave way to many out of the ordinary observations of his surroundings. Holden has no sources of motivation, probably due to the unconditional events of Holdens childhood. He flunked Pencey Prep because he has no apparent drive to accomplish things as most people do. Ever since Holden left Pencey, he has been becoming more and more lonely, without anyone to guide him in his actions. Overall, Holden is becoming reckless and he is subconsciously leading himself to things he is not prepared for.
ReplyDeleteRachel,
I strongly agree on your observations. The fact that he pushes people away, I think is accurate. Good work.